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title: WWDC2004 Session 730
framework: wwdc
role: article
path: wwdc/wwdc2004-730
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# WWDC2004 Session 730

## Transcript

Kind: captions Language: en I hope you've been having a good day thanks for coming to our session and it's the evolution of standards I'm very pleased to welcome you to our panel discussion today and that panel discussion is going to be led by Dave singer who is one of our standards experts at Apple so Dave thank you very much so yes welcome to the evolution of standards this is a moderated panel session we're going to go through a few slides at the beginning and give you time for questions at the end we're going to give you a rough idea of what's going on what's happened recently what may be coming up out of the standards organization and I'd like to introduce with you the distinguished panelists I have here so on the left here a leading luminary in the video coding business a published author and a respected figure worldwide in video coding Barry Haskel of Apple Computer gives me great pleasure and a small squeeze sort of excitement to introduce the chair of the International MPEG audio subgroup a sage in the audio coding business again a leading figure in the international audio business skyla Quackenbush I'm bringing out the back I'll talk a little bit about about system stuff we're going to introduce the session you asked questions we have a lot of fun so I'm going to go through the standards organizations at least some of them that you may have heard of and who they are roughly what they do give you a couple of things about some things that I think are exciting about what's happened in systems related standards recently a couple of slides on licensing but I'm going to turn it over to Skyler who's going to talk to you about audio and then we'll do a video update at the end we will be taking lots of questions at the end and we'll take straight for clarification questions during sessions so if you have a clarification question don't hesitate to interrupt but if it's a general question hold at the end we're going to leave plenty of time for it unlike what you might expect we're going to be frank honest even forthright about questions like when will Apple introduce a particular technology or what legal advice do you have for this and so on and in order to save time however I'm going to give you that question now the answer is we don't know you might want to save those questions for some other time so the standards organizations this is the most boring part you can sleep for a minute okay ISO an ITU two very big organizations ISO has two important working groups for the quick time related people working group one under SC 29 the joint photographic experts group the people who bought your classic JPEG JPEG 2000 and so on they're doing lots of exciting work I'm not going to talk about it today working group 11 the motion pictures expert group where we all go to they're the people who brought you mpeg-1 mpeg-2 mpeg-4 and then pick with lots of other numbers behind it too and then the ITU has the video coding expert group which you've heard about which is where the h.264 work started for example on lots of other h-series codecs certainly listen F&E I know that's been talked about a lot at this session there's two really big organizations there they're both partnership projects they're partnership projects between standards organizations believe it or not mostly national standards organizations 3gpp sets the standards for roughly the people who are in the GSM family of cellular standards the ones that started in Europe but are now basically worldwide 3gpp - follows the other track the CDMA cdma2000 related set of families you'll find them both have open web sites in which you can find a lot of information - more interesting ones Society of motion picture and television engineers they do a lot of the standards work for production and broadcasts and so on that's simply and you'll find lots of information on their website and finally those of you are interested in streaming the standards for internet-based streaming or the protocol dispersed specifications and so on they come from the internet Engineering Task Force IETF now there are also out in that field industry consortium there aren't really standards organized as such these people do collaboration agreements and so on implementation agreements where they all agree to implement the same thing they do a lot of the testing sometimes some of the more business related discussions happening consortium like this so internet streaming media Association is ma they do they do interoperability agreements for the internet and for ip-based networks Open Mobile Alliance they do that for cellular and for telephony related high-level functions TVB they do it for digital video broadcasting if their title implies mostly based in Europe DVD forum there people who talk about shiny discs and we had a lot about that yesterday in the h.264 session finally the MPEG industry forum put this one laughs but it's actually a good place to go to this is one where they promote and explain MPEG technologies they have a lot of information on their website they tend to keep a lot of news there may be a good place for you to start and you'll find lots of links to other useful places from the MPEG if' so with that I'm going to just give you a little quick update of two things that I think are really exciting in systems unfortunately I know systems is not that exciting so I'm going to talk about file format I'm going to talk about file format simply because it's my baby ok so you're just going to have to humor me for one slide what's been going on with the ISO file format the ISO file format is we told you last year and the year before was adopted into MPEG as the basis for the mp4 file format then it became the motion JPEG file format then the 3gpp file format under 3 GPP - file format and the SD video card associations file format so you can see this powerful much going going places and really going that with the AVC the h.264 up the committee realized that because they commit the the codec itself offered had such a variety of features and functions we could do with better file format support so there's lots of fun stuff in there you can group samples together so you can do layering and subsequent selection of an AVC session in an ISO based file you can get much more dependency information because the dependency structure of AVC is so much more complicated we give you clues in the file format or at least we enable you to put clues in the file format so you can disentangle the dependency information there's an amendment in under way which includes those extensions and actually a lot of other stuff too a lot of you have been saying guys the ISO file format approach to metadata is very weak and we knew that so we put in a really good foundation for metadata support and explicit support for MPEG 7 but it's also open to storing other kinds of metadata so if you're a metadata oriented person this amendment may be for you and then there's support there for content protection so you can do protected rights protected DRM content in the file format in a standard way so we can finally we got a standard container format for exchanging rights protected content which is a I think a breakthrough in the industry an interesting development going on in 3gpp release six is almost done a terrific amount of stuff in there for those of you who follow the cellular world this is probably the reason I think we'll will become the one that becomes prevalent in the in the 3G world very rapidly not only does it include the h.264 codec which will obviously the video feature but in the system's area they finally put content protection in there so we can talk about rights protected content in the cellular well there's buffer management and adaptive streaming across the network so we can expect better quality streaming better adaptation between the handset and the server back at the of the operators place and indeed there's RTP retransmission support so if a packet does get lost despite all the lower layers attempts to get it through to you there's retransmission support at that level there's also quality of experience monitoring which is going to be interesting it's going to enable the operator to work out hey that sucks for you and not charge you so much before you actually had to call them and complain that it's such of course they're hoping it won't suck at all and then there's multicast and broadcast support so there's lots of opportunities in business now to send out real-time live content in a multicast broadcast fashion which puts less load on the network and obviously should cost less to the end-user so with that I'm just going to give you a really quick update on licensing so we normally do licensing licensing is perfectly ordinary there are companies whose job it is to do basic research and development and then license it and we all appreciate that because we couldn't get that number of experts together in the same place and get the same result right so licensing is a normal part of a high-tech business it became difficult over the last few years we know but we think it's getting easier again almost any successful market needs an interoperable standard you've got to have multiple players in the market who can interoperate providing the different products that fill out all the niches both in terms of function and in terms of placement that are needed to make a market mature for multimedia standards licensing models have included encoder/decoder manufacturing and bundling fees that's perfectly normal you haven't seen them in the past because they typically been embedded in the chips that were put into the products so that chip cost a little bit more because it paid a license they've also been content replication fees that's perfectly normal again so when you buy a DVD there's a there's amount of money going back to the rights owner here who who developed the standards for how you make that DVD that's how they make their money we typically cover a good chunk of what we can for you so you can use the technology without having to worry too much so the question is of course okay if Apple's covering a good chunk of it do I need a license well you might one of my strongest suggestions to you and I mean this seriously is read the License Agreement we give you we actually spend a lot of time writing that License Agreement and it really breaks our hearts to think people are just going to go agree without having read it yeah and particularly it breaks our hearts when they go agree without having read it and then they have to call us to say what do they say so if you're in doubt about your use read the License Agreement it might explain it and if you are still in doubt you can do two things you can work out well if I'm doing a product of my own an apples license doesn't apply maybe I need to go to the licensing authorities or look at the standards itself most standards when they published have an annex of people who claim IPR and that standard you could go and read that and contact them there are two big organizations in the business who cover a lot of the multi media licenses you might need MPEG LA they did then take two famously and take four video I'm systems license and they're handling some of the ABC licensing and Paykel a comm for your licensing they do a lot of audio licensing and they also have some of the ABC licensing and via licensing comm they have FAQs on their websites they have press releases they have synopses of the license agreements and then if you're feeling really really keen you can actually read the legalese of the license agreements themselves so with that I'd like to hand it over to Skyler who's going to give you an exciting audio update thanks Dave okay so I want to begin by reviewing the MPEG audio standards talk about where MPEG has been and where MPEG is going I'd like to begin the timeline with the compact disc 1982 which I think kicked off the whole digital audio revolution more than ten years after that MPEG standardised MPEG 1 layer 3 or mp3 so that is looking already like a pretty old guy but still holding an important position in the marketplace several years after that and take two issued advanced audio coding and this also exists in the mpeg-4 standard this is arguably the state of the art in perceptual audio coding several years after that 2003 last year MPEG issued the high efficiency AAC codec this builds on AAC we'll talk about how that works but in fact it uses a different dimension exploits a different dimension to get more compression in 2005 next year I anticipate MPEG will issue a standard on lossless audio coding so what we see is I'm giving you a timeline view here but what we see is that we've got compression and then we kind of take a step backwards and say oh let's do something else let's do compression but I want all the bits back and then finally we're about to begin a new work item in spatial audio coding we're back in the compression business but again we're not just doing a perceptual audio codec we're exploiting a different aspect and that actually soundstage compression to give you total bitrate compression so here's the timeline of what MPEG has been doing I'm going to stand over here and so let me give you another view of this and look at performance so the top line is the compact disk and if you look at the right hand side I want to look at its per channel per second which kind of normalizes my whole rate because we'll see that we're going to go from two channel to multi channel in the course of looking at the various specifications and I've reversed the timeline and we're looking at on the right hand column bits per channel per second so the ALS the audio lossless coding it's at 325 kilobits per second that's a lot but that's about two to one compression and you get all the Spang so it's bid exact I think that number is it's 48 kilohertz sampling rate it's not a perceptual coder it's just compress it mathematically and give me the bits back which is a departure for MPEG now the next line is mp3 it's the oldest of the MPEG coders it's a perceptual audio coder and it gives you good compression not the best and typically people I mean I think it should be run at like 80 kilobits per second per channel so 160 kilobits for stereo a lot of people run at 128 a lot of people run at 64 but at 80 it really sounds good now I said the next after that was AAC and in effect really sounds good at 64 kilobits per second per channel and then affect MPEG benchmarked it as an EB you broadcast quality codec at that rate so as I mentioned before mp3 and AAC are perceptual audio coders you're getting compression and it primarily exploits aspects of human hearing to shape the coding noise so that you don't hear it now the next standard is high efficiency AAC and again another slide will show you how it works but here we're not just doing perceptual coding in fact it builds on top of AAC and it uses AAC but then as a feature of coding the bandwidth so called bandwidth extension it gives you compression by coding the bandwidth and a clever way so there's shape noise then with coding and in the bottom line s C stands for spatial audio coding a whole other dimension in compression by exploiting soundstage compression in a perceptual way so it is a perceptual coder but it's not shaped no ways it's how we perceive a soundstage and can we do clever things to code that in a very compact way and the answer is yes and so we see that to recap empty 380 kilobits AAC 64 kilobits HDAC AAC a huge leap forward 24 kilobits per second and finally spatial audio coding 21 so we are really marching forward but we've had to use different tricks to get there so let's talk about what are those tricks how does it work okay now first I get ahead of myself so we those are the MPEG standards where are they in the marketplace are they being used so let's talk about that first mp3 it's everywhere I mean it's old it has taken ten plus years to be really successful in the marketplace so successful it's never going to go away so MPEG is usually proud of that piece of technology AAC which I say is definitely one better the state of the art it's being used by Apple iTunes and the iPod cool great realnetworks wraps Rhapsody uses AAC at a very high bitrate they want to really bring you great digital audio so they run at 192 kilobits per second for stereo and in fact you will see AAC and a number of tree G cell phones HD AAC it's the stuff that makes XM satellite radio go satellite radio is what I call expensive bits and you need compression when bits are expensive and so they can only dedicate like 48 kilobits per second to a broadcast and you need some heavy compression to deliver entertainment quality audio now AAC I told you real at 192 kilobits per second this is excellent quality it sustains the your inspection and preview in the best listening room hea AC we're talking huge compression to get over that channel listen to it in your car enjoy it but it's at what I call entertainment quality so we talked about compression but it's in the think of it in the context of the application so it's all reference listening room kinds of qualities ALS again this is in work-in-progress and MPEG I think it's going to have a lot of application in professional music archiving when professional goes v channel which is happening now that's a lot of bits and even if you can give me a factor of two that disc farm got a lot smaller so they're going to go with that and we will see that one of the advantages of standards is longevity you know I got the data base it cost me a fortune can I please read it 10 20 30 years from now so standards are good in that capacity finally spatial audio coding it's a new work item it's going to begin at the next MPEG meeting in July I'm very excited about it and what I think is so great is that I told you about HEA AC 48 kilobits per second to my car what if you want to do that and say now it's 5.1 channel well I think the spatial audio coding could make that happen so I think it's a very powerful technology than a local and open a lot of markets but we're just beginning right now I'm going to talk about these technologies and very quickly give you the 50,000 foot view of what makes them work this is mp3 a lot of boxes just look at the blue boxes what you see is the 32 band filter Bank that's common four layers one two and three layer three follows it by at 18 point mdc-t the result is high-resolution filter Bank and this is the first component to get compression it's what I call statistical compression you need to Decorah late the signal and just in a mathematical sense you get compression the second component is the perceptual model which is up on the left this goes one better and says okay I see what the mathematical model says and statistically speaking I can rid of some debts but now the perceptual model says well what can you really hear and so based on that model it says okay it's important to code this you don't have to code that at all and so it is really driving the allocation of bits in the whole coder and then finally the blue box noiseless coding is essentially an entropy matching block and it's needed to deal with some mathematical aspects of compression and so and it's in a very first order approximation the filter Bank is like a factor of two compression the perceptual model about 2.5 and the lossless coding another factor to you get to about a factor of ten in this classic perceptual coder framework now AAC it's better what really happened a lot more boxes I'm not going to go into that but now you got a 1024 point filter Bank even higher resolution it made a difference but you get the same perceptual model the same noiseless coding so in the first approximation it's just a cleaner looking layer 3 in which you don't have the two filter banks but just one same principles apply the classic perceptual audio coder now what is this other stuff I was talking about high efficiency AAC well really it's AAC kohler with something else and what you begin is with an encoder that down samples of signal and just codes the first half of the bandwidth with AAC but it has some side information the encoder looks of the whole thing and it says hey can i approximate that upper band by what I know about the lower band and I send some hints and that's the side information the answer is yes and it works incredibly well so in the decoder you've got a classic AAC decoder you get back the hatch mark here and then you essentially map it up to the high band fix it up equalized with the side information and you get the wideband so the point is you got as a foundation the classic perceptual coder but the new dimension is this bandwidth coding we have to use a new idea to get more compression this is one of the new ideas now spatial audio coding is another case of a new idea you have a five channel signal you present it to the encoder and the first thing it does is it mixes it down to let's say two channels and encodes it with a classic AAC coder sounds like HEA AC so far but now instead of talking about bandwidth we're talking about soundstage what can I tell you if I have two channels about how to unwrap it two font the drums are in the right channel note they're really in the right surround so I have some signed information that says how can I give the decoder hints to expand that so it's soundstage coding based on a solid to channel Foundation and in fact it works incredibly well we have some early demos I expect to begin this work in July and the first demo indicate that I can do 5.1 I'd give a hundred and one hundred and ten bits to AAC and maybe twenty to thirty two kilobits to the side information and you know in the first audition you can't tell the difference between the coded and the discrete five channel based band so I think it's really exciting technology and I think it's going to have a huge impact in the marketplace but that's in the future finally lossless coding we do a few things in MPEG I want to just bring you through one this is a classic lossless compression architecture there's nothing new here it's got a time domain predictor and you follow up by an entropy coder why what's new well the answer is nothing but it's MPEG so if you look at the end big standards there's compression but nothing lossless and so as I said before you know I'm the I'm the DVC I save all my programs I got dis farms that stuff's worth some money I want to make sure I can read that 20 years from now and standards provide a kind of a comfort level where they can say well the standard won't change I've got multi-vendor support I'm going with the standard as opposed to a proprietary solution where that company maybe they're going to go out of business so it doesn't have to be new and better it can just be standardized and that's the role that we want to fulfill with this and I think it's a legitimate one okay I'm going to give you one demo it's a AC versus high-efficiency a AC and in fact I'm going to do it at 32 kilobits per second I just want to show you that that this is a new thing and I think you'll see that relative to a AC there's a remarkable difference delivered by HEA a sync so we can go to the demo machine okay we're not going to go its back okay so 32 kilobits I'm going to play AAC [Music] it's band-limited I can't do better than that with this classic architecture so let me just bounce between that and HEA a stage [Music] okay with expansion and they could be different muffles low uninteresting you get more staying bitrate so I wish I could demo the spatial coding but I don't have live channel here but I just wanted to show you that MPEG has got some new stuff going again this is at a bid rate which is 32 kilobits per second for stereo that's I would have said that was ridiculous several years ago but it is a place in the marketplace it sounds awfully good and as I said XM radio runs out at 48 but in this room 32 says everybody says I hear the difference so you kind of kind of push the compression so you realize what's going on but can we have the slides back again but I think it the answer is cool cool technology okay so I have one more slide find out more two URLs the one is the MPEG homepage the second one is the audio homepage so I certainly invite you to go to the audio homepage and then there's some books on MPEG these Jen tend to be all of MPEG but you'll find a chapter on audio so there's a couple for your reference and that's all I have thanks caller and now do something completely different a video we're going to try and cover these three questions what are they what can they do for us and what are they going to do for us in the future well everybody loves pictures and the test of the video progression is whether we can see the moon in the upper right hand corner and we can that's great but they take an awful lot of bits if you don't have any compression Home Video telephone for example 6 megabits just for home video telephone high-definition TV gets you up to one and a half gigabits an incredible number of bits if you can't do compression for example now here's what what compression can do for us for the home video telephone we can get compression ratios of 50 with very very high quality or push it up to as high as 300 if we're comfortable with the usable I won't go through all of these but down at Entertainment Television a high-definition television we can get compression ratios in the range of 40 or 50 with very high quality or even with a little more for quality that's usable something like you're used to on your cable television the current video coding standards look like this and here are the dates in which they were introduced h.261 i guess was one of the first ones to catch on in a big way that's used even today in video conferencing internet video conferencing still uses this a little bit mpeg-1 came on in 1992 that was aimed mostly at compact discs kuroky machines use MPEG 1 almost exclusively MPEG 2 was jointly done with the itu itu gave it this number h2 6 to MPEG gave it this well it's got a bigger number actually but everybody calls it MPEG 2 and that's what's used in today's digital television HDTV DVD and personal video recorders a whole bunch of things use mpeg-2 this is probably the most successful video standard ever h.263 is an itu standard follows on h.261 it's a better video conferencing standard mpeg-4 part 2 as the video came on a few years ago aimed at PC and Internet applications it's more than the compression standard it just has a plethora of things that it's trying to do with mpeg-4 and last but not least just coming on a few months ago is h26 this again was jointly developed by ITU and MPEG ITU gave it this number h.264 mpeg-4 AVC and that's a bit of a confusion you'll find people bouncing back and forth I tend to call it h.264 David tends to call it ABC and different people just bounce back and forth so if you can just plant in your brain AVC in and h.264 are the same or the same and it's evolving a little technology I don't know how much technologies introduced here actually how many were at the h.264 session yesterday same time same place a lot of people well and some weren't okay well I'll mention a little technology of course we all like color pixel a color pictures and we know we send color pic they come out of the camera as three components red green and blue and those can be digitized of course but if you just do that you end up with a lot of bits we don't send the red-green-blue we convert that with a linear transform into luminance and to chrominance signals it's a reversible transform that but with this transform that enables us to subsample the two chrominance signals the chrominance is usually less samples per picture than the luminance a little more technology jargon iframes P frames and B frames what do these mean well what it means is typically we don't send the pixels themselves we divide the picture up into small blocks I believe this is 8x8 blocks it's 8 pixels by 8 pixels sometimes they're 4 by 4 and instead of sending the pixels we transform those into transform coefficients it's so discrete cosine transform is what's used by everybody today historically there were other transforms but this is what we use so we don't send the pixels we send transform coefficients and iframes means well we just send the transform coefficients in one frame very similar to the way JPEG does the coding does not depend on any other frame now we also use motion compensation if we want to send this block in the current frame we try to predict it from the previous frame and since video often has motion the previous frame the block is in a different position so we use that shifted block as a prediction of the block we're trying to send in the current frame and we send the difference between in the current frame and the previous frame if this is an 8 by 8 block we get 64 differences we transform the difference and send that and that's what we call a P frame the motion compensated predict and frame it depends on one other frame we also use by directional motion compensated prediction in this case if we wanted to send this block we calculate the same motion compensated prediction in the previous frame but we also sent calculate a motion compensated prediction in the future frame we then calculate the two differences from the current frame to the previous frame current frame with the future frame add up the differences divided by two and send the average and that's what's referred to as a B frame by directional motion compensated predicted frame this coding depends on two other frames we put it all together let's you get a block diagram that looks like this I won't go through all the components here's a predictor predictor goes into a subtractor you calculate the difference transform the difference quantized code it send it off to the transmitter decoder does virtually the same thing it calculates a prediction but the received signal is a different signal so that has to be added to the prediction to get the decoded image so that's how all these coders work now an important issue on these standards is that they specify the bitstream they tell you what the bits are and they tell you how to decode mostly they tell you how to decode those bits they do not specify the end coder they do not tell you how to produce the bits that's a difference between the audio in the video standards the encoders in fact continue to improve for years and years and years after the standard is finalized mpeg-2 encoders are still improving every single year mpeg-4 video part 2 is video there are all kinds of other parts has a wide range of bit rates and a wide range of options now here's the picture we use to get to describe mpeg-4 mpeg-4 was aimed at coding separate 3d objects separate audiologic separate video objects and to allow those objects to be coded and transmitted separately and composed at the receiver at the decoder to produce the final picture the final picture might be choosable at the transmitter might be choosable at the at the receiver I think it's fair to say this vision is not implemented very much anywhere the academics are having with having a great time with it hasn't really hit the marketplace there are other features like text-to-speech patient body animation wireframe models sprite coatings of backgrounds just a wide variety of features the newest video coding standard when you heard about yesterday one we're introducing at Apple this week actually is the h.264/avc standard much better compression than mpeg-2 approximately twice as much as mpeg-2 on the compression side so for example for PC or cd-rom applications which typically mpeg-1 handle compression ratio of 55 50 well these compression ratios as you know depend on the quality of the coding so this is a range 55 you can double at over a hundred for a normal TV compression ratios of 60 figure double lot you can get over a hundred double the number of channels that you can send on the digital transmission and for HD again doubling that would would mean you could get double the number of HD pictures so that you can on today's show cable now what's in this h.264 technology you heard much of this yesterday and I won't go through these in great detail there's a 4x4 transform instead of an 8x8 transform the motion compensation blocks instead of all being the same size can have different sizes if you're on the edge of an object you want to have small motion compensated blocks there's ad blocking filter many of these compression algorithms if you really squeeze them down you begin to see the 8x8 blocks so there's a D blocking filter that des compensates for that what else there's an intra prediction instead of coding the little blocks separately they can use predictive coding to encode the blocks there's some error resilience techniques if you have enough bits you can actually send the pictures several times so if one of them doesn't make it during the transmission you can use one of the others you don't have to send the whole picture you can send pieces of the picture some pieces are more important than others multiple reference frames this coder allows you to use in your motion compensation a whole bunch of previous frames not just one so you can choose which of the reference frames you want to use what oh what's coming up well an MPEG in h.264/avc an amendment just being worked on now is called fidelity range extensions at the mouth full we typically call it fixed that's one syllable acronym perfect it allows up to 12 bits per pixel prior to this most of these standards use 8 this 12 may be extended actually to 16 it allows higher color sub Sam a higher color resolution typically the color resolution has been subsampled by 2 in both horizontal vert and vertical directions the sub sampling can be what the sub sampling can be completely eliminated for professional applications it has an optional 8 by 8 DCT on some videos the 8 by DCT works a little better than the 4 by 4 DCT so they threw in an optional one and an alpha channel is being considered currently another one that's just getting underway this is MPEG 21 now so you may ask how to send big come up with these numbers 1 mpeg-2 mpeg-4 and pic 7 and pig 21 answer said we don't know but we have no idea it's a marketing thing I think scalable video coding scalable video coding has a checkered history in this business MPEG 2 had a scalable video coding profile it was never really implemented as far as we know it's a great match for networking that has multicast you know the multicast IETF mechanisms for the Internet unfortunately multicast is really isn't everywhere that's the problem so if you want to do scalable multicast broadcast you may not be able to get everywhere so it's not used very much but MPEG 21 is going to give it another try and we'll see what happens h.265 that's more or less a placeholder actually it'll be the follow-on to h.264 at this stage it's probably a research effort and that's how most of these video standards come about actually a research effort starts and then technology is either adopted or tossed and then after quite a number of years and in the case of MP of h.264 the development of the standard took place with with contributions from a lots and lots of people the MPEG video standards typically have more than a couple hundred people contributing to these standards so h.265 we have high hopes for I'll give it six or seven years maybe another issue on these standards of course is the processing power that we have to deal with a lot of the ideas are not particularly new but with the incredible processing power that our chip friends have provided us we can now implement these ideas so given a few more years hopefully the curve will continue to be will give us more processing power in the future and we can implement a lot of these ideas okay that in a nutshell is is so what video standards are all about